M30 turbo charged

[Chakster]

Good day I have a e30 with a m30 3.5 turbo charged and I'm making 649 hp max so far. I've seem to have hit a wall .. I have done bottom end work and billet valves etc on the head . It have in a B9 alpina cam and I'm working a Borg Warner sx300 turbo . My goal is to reach 750 plus hp but I need help getting there.. injectors are 1200 also so I dont think they are the problem

[Nothintoseeere]

750hp at what rpm?

You get 649hp at what rpm.

To get more power you either have to get more air at lower rpm at which point the pistons and rods have to be able to take it or get more air in but at higher rpm. Your turbo will also have to deliver. Can the b10 cam can pull more air at high rpm than the b9 cam?

I don't know specifically how one can get 750hp put of a m30 but I do know you would have to decide on more boost pressure or more air at high RPM.

Either way you might need a rebuild with new parts to get there depending on what you have done so far.

[Mike W.]

Welcome to the group chakster.

But if you really have 649HP I think you may be at or past the limit of what can be done. Even with massive boost, there's a limit. Even if you have an extremely worked head, as Paul Burke might have done in his day, the 2 valve head limits things. And I can't remember the number, but I recall a magazine article from long, long ago, where BMW engineers building race cars spoke about the limits of the block where it started to flex. Now I think this was group 5 racing, so longevity might have been more of an issue, but you're talking big numbers.

All that said, the Forced Induction subforum might be of better use for you. https://www.mye28.com/viewforum.php?f=6 And while skeptical, I do wish you luck, the more the better, keep us posted!

[Nothintoseeere]

Didn't bmw have 900hp m10 or m30 engines? It must be possible even if the engine is short lived.

Cooling the air charge will be more of a challenge and that would be one way of getting more air into the engine.

In terms if the block flexing wouldn't reducing the bore size a bit with sleeves would help. The lost displacement surely could be made up with higher boost. I have wondered if the b30 engines would be a better starting point for a turbo build than the b35 engine.

[Ken H.]

BMW power plant outputs in the '80s--the M 10 4-cyl blocks used in the F1 cars were sleeved to bring the displacement down to 1.5 liters. Don't recall for sure, but I want to say these motors were running something around 3 bar of boost. Dyno power levels were on the order of 1350 fwhp. Should be
noted here that the actual # was something higher; 1350 fwhp was all BMW Motorsport's dyno could read . . .
This level of power delivery was used solely for qualifying, the engines having life expectancies measured in minutes. Race engines, with the same physical configuration, used lower boost levels, this to allow a motor to complete a 200-mile race.

BMW Motorsport was able to get ~850 fwhp from the M88/3 motors used in the M1 Procars. This setup was running about 1.6 bar and revved to about 7200 rpm redline. Again, life expectancy wasn't a consideration. Note that these were not M30 motors. The Group 5 sedans which used the M30 block had a fair number of constraints on the motors, this coming from the FIA rules for the class. But nowhere close to 649 fwhp.

All that being said, I suggest that one needs to go to the www.motorgeek.com website and look at their "flow calculator" segment. This is a highly useful "turbo calculator." Using appropriate inputs, it is possible to create a highly accurate "paper engine." One of it's benefits is that putting in known/published factors has the result of getting rid of a lot of the bullshit about what a given motor can deliver.

As far as a 649 fwhp M30 is concerned, if the number can be supported by hardcopy eddy current or engine dyno results, all well and good.
But using the motorgeek model, it points toward boost at 18 to 20 psi. Further, these results call for a Volumetric Efficiency (Ve) of around 125+%.
To get there, there has to have been some prodigious work done on the head. BTW, what kind of airflow numbers did the flowbench tests give??

Mike W. has covered a lot of this in his post.
So 750 fwhp coming out of a 3.4 liter M30? Here comea a flea, floating down the river on his back, yelling "raise the drawbridge!!"

[Chakster]

Is there a way I can show you guys pics of the dyno chart and the set up?

[Nothintoseeere]

Take pictures and upload using one the many picture hosting sites.

Imgbb works for me.

[marc79euro645]

I would love to see your setup. It's easy, read this.
https://www.mye28.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=147488

Also, what turbo are you using? When do you see boost (rpm)?

[Chakster]

https://ibb.co/HdQZRCq https://ibb.co/kg5k9vh https://ibb.co/9Nv8qG6

[Chakster]

Hopefully you guys get to see the pictures.

[tschultz]

[Ken H.]

Chakster:

A most impressive dyno pull. Please excuse me while I finish my helping of crow.

Still have a few questions here:
1.What make and model turbo are you running.
2. What boost psi when the pictured run was done?
3. What type of exhaust manifold? log or equal-length tubular?
4. Having run your numbers into the motorgeeks.com flow calculator, what kind of Volumetric Efficiency values are you getting @ 5550 rpm?
My doodling sez that you should be somewhat near 143%. Which leads to my next question:
5. Have you flowbenched your cyl head? A stock M30B35 head will flow ~225 cfm @ 28 in of water. In order to reach 143% Ve, it would appear that a flow # of about 240 cfm is needed:
flow rate cfm x 3456 (value used for a 4-cycle motor, adjusted to show cubic feet) / displacement in cubic inches x stipulated rpm

So, solving for cfm,
240 x 3456/209 x 5550 =829440 / 1159550 =.715 normally aspirated Ve. Multiply this # by the Density Ratio (what's going into the manifold ex-turbo and intercooler) Dr = 2.00. .715 x 2.00 = 1.43. 2.00 Dr derived from the motorgeek flow calculator.

Plugging this # into the motorgeek flow calculator and and trying various values, the "paper engine" sez you need an 11.8 A/F # and 18# of boost.
OK, all doable numbers. The model came back with fwhp = 666 @ 5550 rpm.

My skepticism here arises from the airflow values. It is relatively easy to raise boost pressures on the intake side, but one reaches diminishing returns fairly quickly due to thermodynamic losses. Concurrently the issues aren't just cramming more charge mass into the motor, but getting the spent charge out of the cylinder. So we are faced with the porting situation. Which is why equal-length tubular manifolds have it over log type constructs.

All that being said, you certainly have my respect.
Where I still have a wait-and-see is w/r/t the proposed 750 fwhp number. 100 hp from where you are now is a huge leap. Possible? maybe, but the controlling factors are going to be boost (diminishing returns) and airflow. At base, an internal combustion motor is an air pump; a 15+% move from where you are now is going to take some doing.

[marc79euro645]

Damn! you're killin it! good job
What a/r turbine housing are you using?

[e12euro]

Welcome to the group chakster.

But if you really have 649HP I think you may be at or past the limit of what can be done. Even with massive boost, there's a limit. Even if you have an extremely worked head, as Paul Burke might have done in his day, the 2 valve head limits things. And I can't remember the number, but I recall a magazine article from long, long ago, where BMW engineers building race cars spoke about the limits of the block where it started to flex. Now I think this was group 5 racing, so longevity might have been more of an issue, but you're talking big numbers.

All that said, the Forced Induction subforum might be of better use for you. https://www.mye28.com/viewforum.php?f=6 And while skeptical, I do wish you luck, the more the better, keep us posted!

BMW's 1976 Le Mans turbocharged e9 Batmobile 3.5L had 750 bhp ( I believe the Frank Stella art car). But that was a fully factory backed racer. I know Motorsport had made motors with as high as 1,000 hp for M1s and e12s they were playing around with (This was in BMW Magazine), after all the little M10 based 1.5L F1 turbo motor made 1,300 hp in qualifying trim. I'm not saying it's easy, but it has been done.

[tschultz]

Two different photos for the intake...did you convert to ITB's after seeing restrictions in the stock M30 intake manifold?

[Chakster]

Yea I did the stock intake can only go so far so we took it out.. also changed the cam and injectors recently so another dyno pull incoming will post some more pictures soon

[Chakster]

https://ibb.co/vJ5HDxL
https://ibb.co/s2HwH8p
https://ibb.co/jHgkq6w

[Chakster]

So i made my target of breaking the 700hp mark guys, we still had some issues at the dyno with outside temperature being that I live in Barbados but we got there .. probably still have more in the tank but I'm happy. Plan now is to get a new turbo because the one I have on now have some mileage on it

[Mike W.]

Past impressive, tip of my hat to you.

A couple of questions though. Looking at the pic of the car on the dyno, it looks like either the front wheels are spinning and the rears may or may not be spinning. And all the strapping is to keep the car from going back, not forward. Perhaps it shows my ignorance, but neither makes sense to me.

[russc]

This hp for that setup isn't out of whack for me. Questions, sure, but there were the euro cars, some posted here making well over 1kwhp with M88 and S36's. I have to take the owner word that that its a M30 2vlv engine. 700whp is a tall order, but not impossible with modern tech. Hes running the tried and true over the top turbo, and when you go that route, the turbos are massive. That helps alot. It also has what looks to be a custom made S36 throttle body intake system, that helps also.

RussC

Chakster:

A most impressive dyno pull. Please excuse me while I finish my helping of crow.

Still have a few questions here:
1.What make and model turbo are you running.
2. What boost psi when the pictured run was done?
3. What type of exhaust manifold? log or equal-length tubular?
4. Having run your numbers into the motorgeeks.com flow calculator, what kind of Volumetric Efficiency values are you getting @ 5550 rpm?
My doodling sez that you should be somewhat near 143%. Which leads to my next question:
5. Have you flowbenched your cyl head? A stock M30B35 head will flow ~225 cfm @ 28 in of water. In order to reach 143% Ve, it would appear that a flow # of about 240 cfm is needed:
flow rate cfm x 3456 (value used for a 4-cycle motor, adjusted to show cubic feet) / displacement in cubic inches x stipulated rpm

So, solving for cfm,
240 x 3456/209 x 5550 =829440 / 1159550 =.715 normally aspirated Ve. Multiply this # by the Density Ratio (what's going into the manifold ex-turbo and intercooler) Dr = 2.00. .715 x 2.00 = 1.43. 2.00 Dr derived from the motorgeek flow calculator.

Plugging this # into the motorgeek flow calculator and and trying various values, the "paper engine" sez you need an 11.8 A/F # and 18# of boost.
OK, all doable numbers. The model came back with fwhp = 666 @ 5550 rpm.

My skepticism here arises from the airflow values. It is relatively easy to raise boost pressures on the intake side, but one reaches diminishing returns fairly quickly due to thermodynamic losses. Concurrently the issues aren't just cramming more charge mass into the motor, but getting the spent charge out of the cylinder. So we are faced with the porting situation. Which is why equal-length tubular manifolds have it over log type constructs.

All that being said, you certainly have my respect.
Where I still have a wait-and-see is w/r/t the proposed 750 fwhp number. 100 hp from where you are now is a huge leap. Possible? maybe, but the controlling factors are going to be boost (diminishing returns) and airflow. At base, an internal combustion motor is an air pump; a 15+% move from where you are now is going to take some doing.

[Rust Bucket]

Need serious head work.

[euroshark90]

700whp!!!
Thats amazing, great job!
I will be on a similar path with my 635csi turbo.
What fuel did you run on the dyno? And how much boost?
I'm surprised you are pushing that much power with a stock distributor cap. I moved to coil near plug awhile ago LMAO